the Todd Horton controversy
What follows is the correspondence between me and some christian guy from New Mexico, as a result of my bombing his goofy little blog with some much-needed skepticism. To be exact, I told him a five-year-old could come up with a question he couldn't answer. However, due to a shortage of five-year-olds, I had to think of something myself. So I asked him who made god, and off we went.
This will be updated when necessary, but from within the thread. Anonymous comments enabled.
Dale,
I appreciate the fact that you are giving me an opportunity to at least represent my Christian beliefs and to share them with you. I understand from your writing that you are a non-believer, but I would like to understand who you are in a better manner. Would you consider yourself an atheist, a pantheist, an evolutionist, or what? It helps to be able to get this dialogue going. Secondly, I will share a little bit about myself since you stated that you wanted to know what type of Christian I am. Well here's my description.
I am the type of Christian that challenges everything. I don't just take what someone says and agree with it. When it comes to the Bible, I am now convinced that it is God's word, but I didn't always believe that. As a matter of fact I used to have the same beliefs as you. I grew up the son of a minister, and if there was one thing that I couldn't stand, it was church and religion. When I moved out of my parents house after HS graduation, I did what I wanted, I didn't step near church or church people. After one year of that attitude I felt miserable. I was a drunk, seeing different women all the time, and etc, and I couldn't stand my life. Something in my life was missing, and for me it was a relationship with Christ, my Lord and Saviour. Maybe, you aren't looking for that, and hey, it's your life. I am not trying to have this dialogue to try and force my beliefs on anyone. I was simply getting sick of watching a 14 year old boy get ridiculed for his faith. I felt that if you wanted to pick on
someone, pick on me, but watch out because I'm a little harder than Nathan.
Well onto your wonderful question. To be plain and simple it is a cheap question. Let me explain. When you ask me who made God, you are agreeing that all things therefore must have a beginning. For example, if there is a God, then God couldn't have come from nothing. Yet when it comes to the Earth, if I ask you who made the Earth, you aren't going to tell me that someone created it. Therefore you are contradicting your own beliefs in your question. See in order to believe that everything has a beginning, you would have to obey all those rules. If you believe that the world is infinite, then hey why couldn't God be infinite? See, what I am trying to say is that if we are going to get anywhere in this dialogue the questions asked should be ones that can truly be discussed. But I don't want you to think that I am ducking your question that 5 year olds can come up with so here is my answer.
God is infinite. He has always been. He came out of nothing, just as He created the world out of nothing. Here's my five year olds question back.
What was the world created out of? You got two simple answers you can give: something or nothing. Is the world infinite or finite? Does everything have to have a beginning?
You see if you want to twist this around and try and get me to answer something that is an unfair question, I will also ask you questions that will make you contradict yourself. It is only fair that way.
Your friend,
Todd
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Todd,
First off, anyone presents more of a challenge than Nathan. The poor little guy. People like you tricking him into feeling shitty all the time, I feel terrible for him. You should really apologize to that kid for making him so conflicted for wondering about if god's really there. Which "he" isn't.
A little thing about my belief system. I don't have one. I guess I follow the golden rule and leave it at that. In this case, I treat you the way I would want to be treated if I thought what you think. After I die, the chains of molecules that make up my body are going back to the earth. As for my "soul", which inconveniently for you hasn't been located EITHER, I'm not worried about it because I don't think it's
there.
"God is infinite. He has always been. He came out of nothing, just as He created the world out of nothing." Matter obeys physical laws, and that's why I think it didn't come from nowhere.
I'm not kidding when I say I pity you. You feel no shame when you call yourself a free thinker, when any question you ask absolutely must end with the answer "yes, god exists." It is totally pathetic the denial you're in.
There are a lot of things we don't know about the universe. The fact these questions exist, you choose to see as proof that we can't know, or that god did it, and leave it at that. And that sucks.
What Is the Universe Made Of?
What is the Biological Basis of Consciousness?
Why Do Humans Have So Few Genes?
To What Extent Are Genetic Variation and Personal Health Linked?
Can the Laws of Physics Be Unified?
How Much Can Human Life Span Be Extended?
What Controls Organ Regeneration?
How Can a Skin Cell Become a Nerve Cell?
How Does a Single Somatic Cell Become a Whole Plant?
How Does Earth's Interior Work?
Are We Alone in the Universe?
How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?
What Determines Species Diversity?
What Genetic Changes Made Us Uniquely Human?
How Are Memories Stored and Retrieved?
How Did Cooperative Behavior Evolve?
How Will Big Pictures Emerge from a Sea of Biological Data?
How Far Can We Push Chemical Self-Assembly?
What Are the Limits of Conventional Computing?
Can We Selectively Shut Off Immune Responses?
Do Deeper Principles Underlie Quantum Uncertainty and Nonlocality?
Is an Effective HIV Vaccine Feasible?
How Hot Will the Greenhouse World Be?
What Can Replace Cheap Oil -- and When?
If you want to know what the world was created out of, study geology. They dig up rocks and study them. Sometimes they find dinosaur bones, too, but they hand them over to the paleotologists. You know who they never, ever consult for their expertise? Religious nuts.
I don't worry about explaining everything, because I don't know it. What kind of maniac would I be if I pretended to know everything?
If the bible is the word of god, what of the poking your eyes out if they offend you? Do you have one eye, or has your eye never offended you? Surely it's one or the other.
We disagree about god existing, and we have our reasons. But my reasons are better than yours.
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Dale Shipley
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Dale,
You know what I just realized? You and me are not that different. You are very aware that I believe in what the Bible says. I take it as absolute truth. Yet you also are influenced by something written to which you have no personal experience of, and therefore you believe it. You place your faith in what Joe Schmoe PHD tells you in some science article when in fact you don't actually see it firsthand. Some scientist says something and you believe it, because you have placed your trust in the scientists that you have never even met. You have a lot more faith in humanity I guess than I do. I believe that the human mind can bring about errors. I don't tune things out automatically. I am always blown away but what science is revealing, yet I don't believe that every word of scientists are true. Human beings are and will always be self-serving. There has to be a benefit for us personally before we buy into something. Do you think that science could be self-providing also? Well, man it seems to me that we aren't that different. We both are influenced by what we believe, we both know that we don't have all the answers, and that is why I am interested in
this dialogue. Hopefully, through this dialogue we can both gain a better understanding of life.
Todd
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I know an olive branch when I see it, but I disagree. I think we are different. You are superstitious and I am a realist.
All isn't lost to you, though. You apparently have a fan club in Mr. Hunt. You can have him. He's not very good anyway. Quite the "four legs good two legs bad" type your kind notoriously attracts.
I'm just going to repeat myself because I'm a glutton for punishment, but there are mountains of verifiable evidence that leading scientific theories are based on. Such as evolution by natural selection. You have absolutely no proof that god ever did ANYTHING, and yet you continue to ignore that and abuse my beloved language by calling yourself open-minded. And I'm the one at fault? I'm the one insulting
you? No. You started this all by trying to screw up what my words mean.
The fact that we both have opinions doesn't make them equal. Just because I didn't dig up the dinosaurs myself doesn't mean I don't know they're there. Nice try to lump me in with you, though.
There's what exists, and what you would prefer to think, and they are different. Seriously. You don't get to just make up reality. The earth is not the center of the universe and there is no trace of god.
Anywhere.
Now that you've ignored me repeatedly, I'm done with you.
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Dale,
Sorry it has come to this. I thought we were having a very adult-like dialogue. Of course there are obvious differences in our beliefs. To say that I am superstitious doesn't make any sense. I find it funny that you mention the theory of natural selection. If my mind does recall even the famous Darwin himself recanted on his theory at the end of his life. The proof that God did something doesn't come by not believing in Him. It is only when you have the privilige to be in a relationship that you start to see the things that He does everyday. How can you say that I'm not open minded. I gave science the opportunity first. I didn't believe in God, but for me there is just too much compelling evidence of His existence. What did I start, and when did I start it by trying to screw up what your words mean? Are you talking about the fact that I used your own words against you? You left yourself open with that. Anytime the basis of your point of view relies on somebody having only to answer your
questions, you aren't playing on a level field. I simply reversed the questions back to you, and you couldn't handle it. I never ducked anything you asked me, and I gave you quotes of supporters of your own stance that came to realize that there must be Somebody behind the universe. How is that twisting your words? You always stated that I needed some personal proof to back my faith, well I asked you back. Do you have any personal proof to back up yours? When's the last time you saw evolution taking place? When is the last time you saw evidence first hand of what you place your faith in? It seems like I responded to your attacks and you just ran from mine. You haven't attempted once to respond in a mature way, rather, you just continue to attack. Just some advice from a person who constantly has to defend himself. Be ready to give an answer for what you believe in. Don't let Darwin do it for you, and don't let Joe
Schmoe PHD. If you want me to back something up, then you should do it too. I hope this isn't the last of our dialogue because I was really enjoying trying to learn what your beliefs are. You stated that you don't have any beliefs. Yet you are so determined to disprove mine. You might not be willing to admit it, but I think that God is working on you. I will continue to pray for you as I mentioned you tonight in prayer meeting at my church.
Don't let it be the last time we chat,
Todd
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Can't you can't stop patting yourself on the head for being a good little altar boy long enough to read what I am typing? I know you feel very clever, but actually proving something doesn't work the way your feelings do.
Emotional responsibility may be the greatest lesson you can learn. I can convince myself to feel all emotive and cathartic like any good method actor, and then I can say the words in the back of the Jack Chick tract, and still know I'm the one who got myself worked up into a tissy and that it's all bullshit, Jesus isn't coming, today or any other day. You, on the other hand, think god's the one who makes you have feelings. It's ridiculous and a waste of my time. You're the wall against people who want to be rational (me) beat their heads.
You don't make any sense and it's frustrating. So from now on I'm taking this one thing at a time. You're the one who's brought me down to this.
I don't know if Darwin "recanted" his theory of evolution by natural selection, which is probably the single best idea anyone has ever had in the history of the world, but even if he did, who gives a shit?
Darwin "recanting" is, to me, the biggest joke ever. But to you, it's the most important thing he ever did.
Shit, if Hitler started moaning and weeping about Jesus in his besieged bunker under Berlin, you'd think he had a change of heart and that you were going to meet up with him at Jesus's barbecue in the sky. That's silly, and you're silly.
Galileo invented the compound microscope, the thermometer, the escapement (while blind), and maybe the ballpoint pen. He also did work on heliocentricity, which the church came down on, hard. They made him recant his theory that the earth isn't the center of the universe, so he did, so they wouldn't burn him at the stake. I would,
too. And you know what? It's words, and that's all. Guess what the earth does? It goes around the fucking sun. Do you agree that the earth goes around the sun?
We can do this as long as it takes.
Your brother in cheese doodles,
D
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And another thing.
Your little "I don't know but neither do you so ha ha ha" routine is fucking irritating, so there's an important postulate I borrow from law:
The burden of proof lies on him who asserts the fact, not on him who denies it, because from the very nature of things a negative cannot be proof.
It follows that the burden of proof is a critical issue in every dispute.
It is your position that god made everything and therefore I should listen to you.
Therefore, the burden of proof lies on you, not me.
Despite how right you claim to be, you can't establish dick.
If god is counting on you to find him, he's extremely safe in his hiding place.
What do we have to talk about?
--
D
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***Exciting update!***
Todd has decided that it would be a more "honest deal" to include our previous commenting in these proceedings. Decide for yourself. It's all available
here
for your perusal at his page's comment section.
Honest, of course, has nothing to do with anything. The more confused you get, the better Todd's chances are you'll forget what this is about.
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I don't think that has anything to do with honesty, really, and I defy you to show how it does, just like I defy to you to answer how it is that god is something more than a figment of your incredibly modest imagination. Which you still can't. Careful not responding or word'll get out you've got nothing to say on the subject.
Not that I expect that by now, of course. Your studies in rhetoric far outpace your ability to answer a simple question.
I'll be sweet and include your request, though, and a way to get there.
(Between you and me, don't slow down now, Mr. Hunt's getting a big christian boner.)
D
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Dale,
I want the emails there in order to show how little credibility that you have. You always say that it is up to me to prove there is a God, and you don't have to do anything except to ask the hardest questions that you can find. Yet you constantly throw in details about science and Darwin and others which therefore puts the burden of proof for those things in your court. All I have to say is not once have I answered questions like you. Here is how you answer questions "The proof of Darwinism is all around us." Well I can answer questions just like that. The proof of God's existence is all around us. Science leads us towards God. The idea of intelligent design is gaining more and more backing by former atheist evolutionists. If we want to answer things in these simple terms we can. I say we because I refuse to answer another of your simple questions before you can show that you have any credibility
whatsoever. Here is one question that you can answer. Name one thing in the Bible that promotes an evil action? Be specific and keep it in context or I will correct you quickly.
Todd
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Todd,
I hate to disappoint you, but I don't fear your rebuke. Your tone is like Darth Vader's assistant from the first star wars, who is going to wipe out the rebels with one swift stroke. Sad. Though you do fight for the dark side, dark being in this case the wantonly ignorant.
Let me see, what's my favorite evil action in the bible? I think I'm going to go with when god decides to drown everyone except Noah and his family. I don't sweat that, really, though, because geology has shown without a doubt that the big flood never occurred. I guess you missed home school that day. And since god did it isn't evil, probably. Unless you've convinced yourself mass murder is ok if it's god doing it, which he is because god's the one who does everything, right?
And I can't resist, but Noah carrying all the animals around in a big boat? That's even more ludicrous than the virgin birth. If that's possible. You astonish me with your obstinacy, but I should have expected it; sheer bullheadedness is the only way for your faith to remain intact. I have so much to learn from you. Like how someone can get to your age without ever hearing of DNA, ninety-eight per cent of which humans share with chimpanzees. That sends up a little red flag for everyone but you.
What of the mechanism by which we experience god? Where is the organ on which the holy spirit acts?
I just don't understand how you think you're coming out ahead here and it's seriously starting to make me wonder if we're from different dimensions. I am from the place where you believe what you see, where people are responsible for their actions and don't have god to pin anything on, whether for better or worse, and where if you don't understand something, you investigate it instead of contemplating god's likely motives for, say, making the Chicago bears suck. You're apparently from the place where you see god everywhere, because you already believe in god, so you see god everywhere, so you believe even more in god. Damn, dude! That makes no sense!
Admitting that you believe in god not for any good reason, but just because you do, would get me a long way in accepting your enthusiasm for your own righteousness, although it wouldn't make me accept the actual righteouness any more than I currently do. Which is guess how much.
I have truly enjoyed this opportunity to peer inside the mind of someone like yourself. As opaque as it has seemed, I hold out hope that somewhere a light will shine through, one way or another. Even if it's just you and I agreeing on the age of the earth. I say four and a half billion years. What about you?
And as for my credibility, I'm not worried about it. Even the fact that you bring it up makes me feel you're on the ropes and hoping to find another distraction.
Bonus question: how does hell work, exactly? And please don't just say something cryptic.
Dale
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Dale,
Hey good to hear from you! Well where do we start.
First off, I would like to discuss the choice that you have made for your favorite evil action in the Bible. You made the choice of Noah, and with good reason. It is a terrible story to have to read. I often have had to struggle with the fact that as you read through many of the Old Testament passages, it appears as if God is a God of wrath. Destroying men, wiping out tribes, but it is a lot deeper than that. Let me explain. When God created man, He did so in a manner to which man would be holy, just as God is holy. Yet in order to show His love, He also gave man the concept of free will. If God had created man in a manner to which we had no ability to make a decision on our own, there would be an absence of love. As Adam and Eve out of their free will, chose to disobey God, it broke the holiness that was present up until that point in man. Now you have the notion of Holy versus Unholy. Here's the first question for you: Could a Holy God stand back and in essence not do anything about unholiness? One thing that I have often thought about was why God chose to do what He did at that exact time. In Genesis 6:5-8 it says "Then the Lord saw that the
wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
There are two important parts of this passage. The first is placed in all capitals. Can you imagine a world where only evil was done continually. Nobody cared about anyone else. There was no science or medicine to help cure sicknesses. There was nothing good. Mans thoughts were totally corrupted. The sentence that follows this part is important as well. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth. This needs understanding, because I know what you're gonna think. Does this mean that God regretted creating humanity? Was He admitting that He made a mistake? No. God does not change His mind. Instead, he was expressing sorrow for what the people had done to themselves, as a parent might express sorrow over a rebellious child. God was sorry that the people chose sin and death instead of a relationship with Him.
The most important thing to understand is the concept of Holiness. Holiness is perfection. You can't be partly holy. There is no grey area. This concept is important because it takes away the thought of humanity doing the same thing. There is not a human that can claim any holiness except through Christ. We can do righteous things, but we can't be holy. Only God is holy, and that which He sanctifies. When the Holy God saw the choices of man, He decided that He would wipe out humanity, yet He showed grace to Noah and the seven others. Why did He do that? Grace is a concept that Christianity and salvation is built on. Was Noah a Holy Man? Well, as I said earlier, you can't be Holy unless you never sin. Noah had sinned. Yet God knows that all man sins. He showed grace to Noah because Noah had kept pure in his ways. He had apparently sought after God. All the others were totally without God. We too would meet death and hell if it weren't for God showing grace to us as well, but we'll get to that later. Therefore, since God loved man, He sent the flood to wipe out all of the wickedness and evil that was on the earth. Therefore, I don't see how you can
call it mass murder. You can't compare it to something that an evil man does, for no man who murders can call themself holy can they? The reason it is not an evil action is because it was due to the fact that God is holy and did it out of His disgust of humanities wickedness.
How come when a bad person is killed no one seems to mourn except those close to the person?
How come noone seems to call it murder when a serial killer is executed? Because of the fact that it is punishment.
Secondly, I have never claimed that I am coming out ahead in this. I have not once called it a debate, but rather a dialogue. There is no competition in a dialogue. So I will ignore that comment.
As for your comment on DNA. I will ignore that one too. The vast differences of the 2% difference in Chimps and us is extreme. We don't look alike, we don't live the same amount of time, we don't think alike. Why would I even want to compare myself with a monkey? I'll leave that to you. I have heard of DNA and so I'll share something with you on that too. You are not thinking of DNA in the complex manner to which it exists. You think that DNA is simple. Each step is formed by pairing up two of the four nucleotides(molecules containing nitrogen in case you didn't know) found in DNA called adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine. When cells reproduce, the two rails or strands (these consist of sugar and phosphate molecules in case you didn't know) untwist and separate from each other, then reconnect to other strands to form exact duplicates of the original. For DNA work, it's not enough to have lots of
adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine molecules strung together. The nucleotides must be strung together in a precise order and the two strands matched up to convey information to the rest of the cell that determines its overall structure, properties, and functions. In easier words Dale, the nucleotides must be arranged in a highly specific and highly complex order that conveys meaningful instructions. The laws of physics and chemistry are woefully inadequate to explain the origin of DNA as a necessary product of any particular physical occurences or series of chemical reactions, and they certainly can't explain the information content of DNA. Suppose for your sake of argument that DNA could form spontaneously through some series of unguided chemical reactions. Even if such a thing could occur, it would not explain the meaning of the information conveyed by the DNA coding. All of these things lead
me to understand that DNA was created and not the result of purely unguided, unplanned natural processes.
You continually contend that I believe in God purely because I have accepted the notion of God. It's not that I don't see God in anything other than what the Bible says. That would be impossible, but rather I see God in all types of things such as in DNA, which I thank you for bringing up. You however continue to contend that there is no evidence of God. You argue that everything that science reveals is the result of the most perfect coincidence that humanity will ever see. It is a perfect mistake. For that I applaud your faith. To continue to ignore the revelations of God all around you takes the utmost faith. I am not trying to persuade you to accept everything that every Christian you meet says, but rather to ask yourself this question: "Is all of this perfection around us the result of a perfect coincidence and mistake, or rather the work of a Creator?
I have given you enough things to think about over this weekend, and a couple of questions that I would appreciate you making an effort at answering for me.
Even though the statement about Noah was difficult, I took the time and respect to give you a thorough answer. It may not be an acceptable answer to you, but I did respond. I also responded to your statement about DNA. I would appreciate the same respect back.
As for your final two questions on "How old the earth is?" and "How does hell work?" I have simple answers for you. I would state that I believe that the age of the earth is closer to what you claim than what many christians claim. I don't think that the age of the earth is something that God revealed in scriptures and I am fascinated by the "gap theory". I believe that the earth is pretty darn old. Probably millions of years old. And the question of hell is not one that I spend a lot of time on. Being that by my relationship with Christ I have been saved, I don't have to give hell any thought. I have received the grace that I was talking about earlier. Thank God that my sinful self was covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, otherwise I would be headed
straight there.
Well Dale, thanks for continuing to correspond with me, and I hope that this dialogue isn't being disgraced into being viewed as a competition. My hope is that through this dialogue we can both come out as winners.
Your friend,
Todd
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I'm taking a little break from this right now. I'll write Todd back when I feel like it. I know you'll be on the edge of your seats just waiting to see what happens next, if there aren't any good Ron Popiel infomercials on. "Set it, and..."
(By the way, I'm familiar with how DNA works.)
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Todd,
Inasmuch as there is a god for you and there isn't for me, we don't have a competition going, naturally. However, for me this is about the actual existence of a god, and not your faith. I don't care about your faith or anyone's faith, but rather what they do in the name of it. As long as the one influences the other in irrational ways, I will have a problem with organized religion. For me this is about that there simply either is, or isn't, a god, and since our opinions differ, one of us is right and the other isn't. Whether you think that's a disgrace or not is your business. Now more than ever, I don't expect to be able to convince you you're wrong for your faith, but I do expect to draw attention to the utter failure of every single person in history who, as much as he or she would love to, and trying as hard as possible, has never been able to prove god's existence in any way whatsoever. If that isn't a statistic that gets your attention, I don't know what to tell you.
Ok, the Noah thing. You think god's decision to kill everyone on earth, save Noah and the his family and the tree frogs (who of course never harmed a soul), wasn't evil, because the people were evil themselves, all throughout and whatnot. The story goes that ALL the people, children and infants included, were just being awful to one another, "EVIL CONTINUALLY". So god killing practically every living human was justified, because it's god doing it, so it's automatically holy. I get that. And now I can see where our paths to understanding diverge.
You have true power over yourself, one that I can never have and don't want. You have achieved the ability, through sheer willpower and steady doses of religious indoctrination, to convince yourself that it's ok when god kills everyone in the world, and that a boat full of all the animals in the world can exist. This is beyond my ability to reason with, and I feel that identifying this now will save me a lot of time in the future.
I am flabbergasted. I can't compete with your necessarily fanatical devotion to you beliefs, as totally insane as I consider them to be, which I do, and I doubt that anything can. What could everyone possibly have done that would be worse than killing every person in the world? Have bad thoughts going on all the time? Stealing?
It's very sick to entertain for even a moment that this story could contain a shred of a moral lesson. It also just couldn't have occurred on earth, at any time. Don't make me send you a list of all the animals in the world.
I really don't see what the point of emailing you is any more, but for the record, I'd like to see you sweat something, and if you feel like answering, here you go. I can tell you've enjoyed the opportunity to give authoritative answers, as nuts as they have to be to fit in with your overburdened belief system.
How does heaven work? You plan on spending eternity there, so what's the plan? Specifically, when you get there, how will you recognize people? Are they the age they were when they died? That would suck for someone who, say, died really old after they lost a leg in their twenties. I want to hear the story you tell young children, the one you personally approve of, that's so much more realistic than the suicide-bombing Islamic heaven where you get to screw seventy-some-odd virgins forever.
The question you asked me to ask myself in your last email, "Is all of this perfection around us the result of a perfect coincidence and mistake, or rather the work of a Creator?" is shaded, plain and simple. I asked myself, and that's what I said. "The question is framed."
My version of that question goes like this. "Is the world around us the work of a creator, or is there another way it could have come about?" Which of these two questions leads to a more rigorous treatment of facts, to a more honest, objective assessment of the world around us?
I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your questions, but "How come when a bad person is killed no one seems to mourn except those close to the person?" seems to be a question that answers itself, and if you don't mind my saying so, is hopelessly general.
I think that about covers it for now, Todd, so have a good one.
Dale
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Dale,
Thanks again for writing back. The last email you sent me seriously frustrates
me. I don't know exactly what you are wanting. You seem to run around in
circles. The only thing that is going to do it for you is a polaroid photo of
God creating the heavens and the earth, and since you will settle for nothing
else, I guess there is no use keeping a dialogue. I asked you a series of
questions and one of two things is taking place. I asked you the first one
which stated "Could a Holy God not do anything about unholiness?" and you
didn't answer it. You supposively have tons of information regarding the
disprovement of the story of Noah based on geological evidence and you offered
zero. You grasped nothing I said because you won't even take the opportunity to
see this side of the story. If there was a Holy God, and no man is holy, can
you compare the action of God to the action of any man? The answer is no. But
you still returned back to the idea that God has to live by man's rules, when
for the believer it is the opposite. I am not holy, and He is, therefore who am
I to bring an argument against God? I included the statement "How come noone
seems to call it murder when a serial killer is executed? Because of the fact
that it is punishment." in order to show my understanding of the act of the
flood. Yet you don't listen.
You include this statement: " but I do expect to draw attention to the utter
failure of every single person in history who, as much as he or she would love
to, and trying as hard as possible, has never been able to prove god's
existence in any way whatsoever. If that isn't a statistic that gets your
attention, I don't know what to tell you."
You know what grabs my attention even more? The exact opposite is true. No
single person in history has been able to prove that there is no God. In fact
the majority of humans believe in God in one way or the other, so don't try and
make it sound like that is so impressive of a statement. You even admitted that
it's impossible to prove God. Yet this was your first statement of the
dialogue, and you can't seem to bring up anything else.
Whether or not you realize it, you also worship something. You worship in your
own manner, and in my opinion your god is science. Yet doesn't every human die,
due to natural causes. So are the natural events of life evil, since they kill
every human? Science can't pinpoint what causes certain diseases, yet they are
scientific organisms. So is science evil too, since bacterias and all those
cool things kill every human? You always try to think of my God as a human, and
that is where you make the mistake. You can't judge God, because you are less
than Him.
You make the statement that my question on whether everything around us in it's
perfection is the result of a Creator or a perfect coincidence is a plain,
simple, and framed question. On what grounds? All I ask you to answer is where
all of the universes came from if they were not created. Since you don't
believe that there is a beginning, and you don't believe that something can't
come from nothing, where does it come from. You talk evolution and big bang
theory, and those are all nice and supported by science, but wouldn't it be an
honest statement that both of these theories make claim that the perfection
comes from nothing and even better that nothing came to be perfection by
natural coincidence? It isn't a framed question, be honest and state the truth,
it is a question that your beliefs are impossible to have an answer to. That
would be truth. You duck the question and call it framed because your beliefs
have nothing to offer. Where is your evidence, Dale. Give me something.
You used to talk about the burden of proof. Well if you are the prosecutor of
my religion, don't you have to prove without a doubt that my God doesn't exist?
The burden of proof is your responsibility when I ask you a question. How would
you respond if I stated that your Noah question was framed. It was intended to
be a question that would stump me wasn't it? Yet I gave you a detailed answer,
and this email is what you give back to me? I know that you are much more
intelligent than that. Either you are losing interest in the question that you
brought up, or you just arent giving any effort, but sorry man this is pathetic.
Hope you can try and answer at least one question that I've proposed to you.
You don't have to tell me something convincing, just say something at least.
Oh, but I forgot. You believe that nothing can be a powerful thing. Who knows,
your answers of nothing might evolve into something someday, hopefully in the
next time you decide to write.
Frustrated,
Todd
----------------------------------
After the last email you sent me, I decided it was a waste of time discussing this entire subject with you. After taking a while to think about how sorry I am for you, I have finally decided to go ahead and tell you why.
To reply to your last email to me (which was the last straw), you're right! I can't prove that god doesn't exist! However, that is a ridiculous point, because I can't prove that fairies aren't under the garden pushing up the tomatoes, either. Congratulations. Even though it was the icing on the cake, I shouldn't have been surprised. You're full of ridiculous points, and that's it. Hot air is all you have, all you have ever had, and all you will ever have until you yank your head out of the aperture which you euphemistically refer to as your intellectual-coma inducing "faith".
I can't penetrate your slavish devotion to your dogmatic argument style, so until I give up on you my wheels will spin, and I will waste my time trying to explain three dimensions to someone whose worldview is contingent on there being only two. Like the stupid waste of money called the war in Iraq, the quicker I pull out the better off I will be. Why? Because you love this idea you have called god, no serious analysis of any other option can occur, and moreover, when it comes to the actions that the god you claim to know about is written to have taken, you still think he's 1) real and 2) a great guy. Let's take a closer look.
Two quick problems with the book your whole reality is based on:
People can't survive in the belly of a whale for three days.
All the animals in the world don't fit on a boat.
Bonus. Donkeys don't talk. (Numbers 22:28)
As for god:
He thinks mustard seeds are the smallest of the seeds. (Matthew 13:32)
He think the sun revolves around the earth. (Joshua 10:13)
God likes to kill babies, (Deut. 32), and this is the guy who your salvation depends on, because he also says the only way to heaven is through him.
And this guy actually throws a curse on a fig tree.
God is a raving, egocentric maniac. By what moral, ethical or practical standard could you fairly argue otherwise? And you know what? I'm not even arguing with you any more because no matter what, for the sake of what you deem "faith", that doesn't matter. Nothing does.
Because of your chosen proximity to it, you only see one square inch of god's metaphorical ass, and you like it that way. I would too, if my mental health depended on some primitive fantasy, so in a way (although it is a way that makes me want to moan with grief), I understand.
And let me clear something up for you, that you wrote in your last really spectacular, challenging, and impressive email. Science doesn't kill people. Nature does, and nature isn't evil. Nothing is evil. Evil is an idea made up by simpletons like yourself. People who need someone to be mad at because they're too stupid to realize that nature is pitilessly indifferent. Not much meaning in that for you, though. And science is not god to me. I don't know what you've been doing with my emails since you obviously aren't reading them, but I'll repeat myself for old time's sake, since this is the last time I'm having to go through this. Religion makes people complacently stupid, content not to investigate the world around them, and to ruin the lives of people who do. So nice try on the little turn-around.
Take care, Todd, and when you look up into the night sky, just look at it and let that be enough. God's not there, and if he was, he's not good enough to give a shit about.
D
---------------------------------------------
SuperDale,
What in the sam heck have you been up to? Sure did miss visiting with you. Heck
I was kind of getting worried that I was in danger of remaining in an
intellectual coma because unless you save me from it I will remain with my head
stuck up my aperture. Jusk kidding, but it is good to hear from you.
I don't know about all that mumbo-jumbo that you are trying to disquise with
intellectual sounding garbage, but I appreciate the genuine concern. Heck, you
at least seem to break the trend of most atheists who are too selfish to care
about anyone else. Your thoughts about me at least assure me that what we've
talked about has remained in your mind, whether it is because you think I'm a
total moron, or because it causes you to stop and think about what's been
discussed.
Since this is the last time you are going to write me, I just want to say I'll
miss you. You have been one of the smartest fellers I've talked with in a long
time, and for what it's worth I admire your zeal to maintain a creative mind
and for searching for truth. I only hope that you find what you are looking
for, since I have found what I looked for. At least maybe you can take that for
a compliment, and as a sign of my respect for you and your belief in nothing.
As for my faith, I am glad that you see that what I believe in is worth it to
me to not pay attention to such well presented statements such as what you have
given. I guess that means that my faith has stood a pretty darn good test. You
are definitely a smart person, and I wish the best to you, your new wife, and
to all the endeavors that you shall embarketh thee on. Just thought I would
throw in a little King James language in case you don't ever open a bible and
read it for yourself.
On the most serious note though, I do appreciate the time that you allowed me
to engage in with yourself, and I hope that in that time you realize that I am
not your enemy, but I only hope to be your friend. God bless you, and I will be
praying for you.
Your potential friend,
Todd
---------------------------------
[At this point our repartee concludes, and not a moment too soon. I'd rather be doing other things with my time. Todd rejects my attempts at reasonableness, and I either call it quits or slowly go insane. The whole thing reminds me of what an old friend once said abut a restaurant. The food sucks, but at least it's expensive.]
This will be updated when necessary, but from within the thread. Anonymous comments enabled.
Dale,
I appreciate the fact that you are giving me an opportunity to at least represent my Christian beliefs and to share them with you. I understand from your writing that you are a non-believer, but I would like to understand who you are in a better manner. Would you consider yourself an atheist, a pantheist, an evolutionist, or what? It helps to be able to get this dialogue going. Secondly, I will share a little bit about myself since you stated that you wanted to know what type of Christian I am. Well here's my description.
I am the type of Christian that challenges everything. I don't just take what someone says and agree with it. When it comes to the Bible, I am now convinced that it is God's word, but I didn't always believe that. As a matter of fact I used to have the same beliefs as you. I grew up the son of a minister, and if there was one thing that I couldn't stand, it was church and religion. When I moved out of my parents house after HS graduation, I did what I wanted, I didn't step near church or church people. After one year of that attitude I felt miserable. I was a drunk, seeing different women all the time, and etc, and I couldn't stand my life. Something in my life was missing, and for me it was a relationship with Christ, my Lord and Saviour. Maybe, you aren't looking for that, and hey, it's your life. I am not trying to have this dialogue to try and force my beliefs on anyone. I was simply getting sick of watching a 14 year old boy get ridiculed for his faith. I felt that if you wanted to pick on
someone, pick on me, but watch out because I'm a little harder than Nathan.
Well onto your wonderful question. To be plain and simple it is a cheap question. Let me explain. When you ask me who made God, you are agreeing that all things therefore must have a beginning. For example, if there is a God, then God couldn't have come from nothing. Yet when it comes to the Earth, if I ask you who made the Earth, you aren't going to tell me that someone created it. Therefore you are contradicting your own beliefs in your question. See in order to believe that everything has a beginning, you would have to obey all those rules. If you believe that the world is infinite, then hey why couldn't God be infinite? See, what I am trying to say is that if we are going to get anywhere in this dialogue the questions asked should be ones that can truly be discussed. But I don't want you to think that I am ducking your question that 5 year olds can come up with so here is my answer.
God is infinite. He has always been. He came out of nothing, just as He created the world out of nothing. Here's my five year olds question back.
What was the world created out of? You got two simple answers you can give: something or nothing. Is the world infinite or finite? Does everything have to have a beginning?
You see if you want to twist this around and try and get me to answer something that is an unfair question, I will also ask you questions that will make you contradict yourself. It is only fair that way.
Your friend,
Todd
_________________________________________
Todd,
First off, anyone presents more of a challenge than Nathan. The poor little guy. People like you tricking him into feeling shitty all the time, I feel terrible for him. You should really apologize to that kid for making him so conflicted for wondering about if god's really there. Which "he" isn't.
A little thing about my belief system. I don't have one. I guess I follow the golden rule and leave it at that. In this case, I treat you the way I would want to be treated if I thought what you think. After I die, the chains of molecules that make up my body are going back to the earth. As for my "soul", which inconveniently for you hasn't been located EITHER, I'm not worried about it because I don't think it's
there.
"God is infinite. He has always been. He came out of nothing, just as He created the world out of nothing." Matter obeys physical laws, and that's why I think it didn't come from nowhere.
I'm not kidding when I say I pity you. You feel no shame when you call yourself a free thinker, when any question you ask absolutely must end with the answer "yes, god exists." It is totally pathetic the denial you're in.
There are a lot of things we don't know about the universe. The fact these questions exist, you choose to see as proof that we can't know, or that god did it, and leave it at that. And that sucks.
What Is the Universe Made Of?
What is the Biological Basis of Consciousness?
Why Do Humans Have So Few Genes?
To What Extent Are Genetic Variation and Personal Health Linked?
Can the Laws of Physics Be Unified?
How Much Can Human Life Span Be Extended?
What Controls Organ Regeneration?
How Can a Skin Cell Become a Nerve Cell?
How Does a Single Somatic Cell Become a Whole Plant?
How Does Earth's Interior Work?
Are We Alone in the Universe?
How and Where Did Life on Earth Arise?
What Determines Species Diversity?
What Genetic Changes Made Us Uniquely Human?
How Are Memories Stored and Retrieved?
How Did Cooperative Behavior Evolve?
How Will Big Pictures Emerge from a Sea of Biological Data?
How Far Can We Push Chemical Self-Assembly?
What Are the Limits of Conventional Computing?
Can We Selectively Shut Off Immune Responses?
Do Deeper Principles Underlie Quantum Uncertainty and Nonlocality?
Is an Effective HIV Vaccine Feasible?
How Hot Will the Greenhouse World Be?
What Can Replace Cheap Oil -- and When?
If you want to know what the world was created out of, study geology. They dig up rocks and study them. Sometimes they find dinosaur bones, too, but they hand them over to the paleotologists. You know who they never, ever consult for their expertise? Religious nuts.
I don't worry about explaining everything, because I don't know it. What kind of maniac would I be if I pretended to know everything?
If the bible is the word of god, what of the poking your eyes out if they offend you? Do you have one eye, or has your eye never offended you? Surely it's one or the other.
We disagree about god existing, and we have our reasons. But my reasons are better than yours.
--
Dale Shipley
________________________________
Dale,
You know what I just realized? You and me are not that different. You are very aware that I believe in what the Bible says. I take it as absolute truth. Yet you also are influenced by something written to which you have no personal experience of, and therefore you believe it. You place your faith in what Joe Schmoe PHD tells you in some science article when in fact you don't actually see it firsthand. Some scientist says something and you believe it, because you have placed your trust in the scientists that you have never even met. You have a lot more faith in humanity I guess than I do. I believe that the human mind can bring about errors. I don't tune things out automatically. I am always blown away but what science is revealing, yet I don't believe that every word of scientists are true. Human beings are and will always be self-serving. There has to be a benefit for us personally before we buy into something. Do you think that science could be self-providing also? Well, man it seems to me that we aren't that different. We both are influenced by what we believe, we both know that we don't have all the answers, and that is why I am interested in
this dialogue. Hopefully, through this dialogue we can both gain a better understanding of life.
Todd
______________________________
I know an olive branch when I see it, but I disagree. I think we are different. You are superstitious and I am a realist.
All isn't lost to you, though. You apparently have a fan club in Mr. Hunt. You can have him. He's not very good anyway. Quite the "four legs good two legs bad" type your kind notoriously attracts.
I'm just going to repeat myself because I'm a glutton for punishment, but there are mountains of verifiable evidence that leading scientific theories are based on. Such as evolution by natural selection. You have absolutely no proof that god ever did ANYTHING, and yet you continue to ignore that and abuse my beloved language by calling yourself open-minded. And I'm the one at fault? I'm the one insulting
you? No. You started this all by trying to screw up what my words mean.
The fact that we both have opinions doesn't make them equal. Just because I didn't dig up the dinosaurs myself doesn't mean I don't know they're there. Nice try to lump me in with you, though.
There's what exists, and what you would prefer to think, and they are different. Seriously. You don't get to just make up reality. The earth is not the center of the universe and there is no trace of god.
Anywhere.
Now that you've ignored me repeatedly, I'm done with you.
_____________________________________
Dale,
Sorry it has come to this. I thought we were having a very adult-like dialogue. Of course there are obvious differences in our beliefs. To say that I am superstitious doesn't make any sense. I find it funny that you mention the theory of natural selection. If my mind does recall even the famous Darwin himself recanted on his theory at the end of his life. The proof that God did something doesn't come by not believing in Him. It is only when you have the privilige to be in a relationship that you start to see the things that He does everyday. How can you say that I'm not open minded. I gave science the opportunity first. I didn't believe in God, but for me there is just too much compelling evidence of His existence. What did I start, and when did I start it by trying to screw up what your words mean? Are you talking about the fact that I used your own words against you? You left yourself open with that. Anytime the basis of your point of view relies on somebody having only to answer your
questions, you aren't playing on a level field. I simply reversed the questions back to you, and you couldn't handle it. I never ducked anything you asked me, and I gave you quotes of supporters of your own stance that came to realize that there must be Somebody behind the universe. How is that twisting your words? You always stated that I needed some personal proof to back my faith, well I asked you back. Do you have any personal proof to back up yours? When's the last time you saw evolution taking place? When is the last time you saw evidence first hand of what you place your faith in? It seems like I responded to your attacks and you just ran from mine. You haven't attempted once to respond in a mature way, rather, you just continue to attack. Just some advice from a person who constantly has to defend himself. Be ready to give an answer for what you believe in. Don't let Darwin do it for you, and don't let Joe
Schmoe PHD. If you want me to back something up, then you should do it too. I hope this isn't the last of our dialogue because I was really enjoying trying to learn what your beliefs are. You stated that you don't have any beliefs. Yet you are so determined to disprove mine. You might not be willing to admit it, but I think that God is working on you. I will continue to pray for you as I mentioned you tonight in prayer meeting at my church.
Don't let it be the last time we chat,
Todd
_________________________________________
Can't you can't stop patting yourself on the head for being a good little altar boy long enough to read what I am typing? I know you feel very clever, but actually proving something doesn't work the way your feelings do.
Emotional responsibility may be the greatest lesson you can learn. I can convince myself to feel all emotive and cathartic like any good method actor, and then I can say the words in the back of the Jack Chick tract, and still know I'm the one who got myself worked up into a tissy and that it's all bullshit, Jesus isn't coming, today or any other day. You, on the other hand, think god's the one who makes you have feelings. It's ridiculous and a waste of my time. You're the wall against people who want to be rational (me) beat their heads.
You don't make any sense and it's frustrating. So from now on I'm taking this one thing at a time. You're the one who's brought me down to this.
I don't know if Darwin "recanted" his theory of evolution by natural selection, which is probably the single best idea anyone has ever had in the history of the world, but even if he did, who gives a shit?
Darwin "recanting" is, to me, the biggest joke ever. But to you, it's the most important thing he ever did.
Shit, if Hitler started moaning and weeping about Jesus in his besieged bunker under Berlin, you'd think he had a change of heart and that you were going to meet up with him at Jesus's barbecue in the sky. That's silly, and you're silly.
Galileo invented the compound microscope, the thermometer, the escapement (while blind), and maybe the ballpoint pen. He also did work on heliocentricity, which the church came down on, hard. They made him recant his theory that the earth isn't the center of the universe, so he did, so they wouldn't burn him at the stake. I would,
too. And you know what? It's words, and that's all. Guess what the earth does? It goes around the fucking sun. Do you agree that the earth goes around the sun?
We can do this as long as it takes.
Your brother in cheese doodles,
D
______________________________________
And another thing.
Your little "I don't know but neither do you so ha ha ha" routine is fucking irritating, so there's an important postulate I borrow from law:
The burden of proof lies on him who asserts the fact, not on him who denies it, because from the very nature of things a negative cannot be proof.
It follows that the burden of proof is a critical issue in every dispute.
It is your position that god made everything and therefore I should listen to you.
Therefore, the burden of proof lies on you, not me.
Despite how right you claim to be, you can't establish dick.
If god is counting on you to find him, he's extremely safe in his hiding place.
What do we have to talk about?
--
D
_____________________________________
***Exciting update!***
Todd has decided that it would be a more "honest deal" to include our previous commenting in these proceedings. Decide for yourself. It's all available
here
for your perusal at his page's comment section.
Honest, of course, has nothing to do with anything. The more confused you get, the better Todd's chances are you'll forget what this is about.
________________________________
I don't think that has anything to do with honesty, really, and I defy you to show how it does, just like I defy to you to answer how it is that god is something more than a figment of your incredibly modest imagination. Which you still can't. Careful not responding or word'll get out you've got nothing to say on the subject.
Not that I expect that by now, of course. Your studies in rhetoric far outpace your ability to answer a simple question.
I'll be sweet and include your request, though, and a way to get there.
(Between you and me, don't slow down now, Mr. Hunt's getting a big christian boner.)
D
_____________________________________________________
Dale,
I want the emails there in order to show how little credibility that you have. You always say that it is up to me to prove there is a God, and you don't have to do anything except to ask the hardest questions that you can find. Yet you constantly throw in details about science and Darwin and others which therefore puts the burden of proof for those things in your court. All I have to say is not once have I answered questions like you. Here is how you answer questions "The proof of Darwinism is all around us." Well I can answer questions just like that. The proof of God's existence is all around us. Science leads us towards God. The idea of intelligent design is gaining more and more backing by former atheist evolutionists. If we want to answer things in these simple terms we can. I say we because I refuse to answer another of your simple questions before you can show that you have any credibility
whatsoever. Here is one question that you can answer. Name one thing in the Bible that promotes an evil action? Be specific and keep it in context or I will correct you quickly.
Todd
________________________________________
Todd,
I hate to disappoint you, but I don't fear your rebuke. Your tone is like Darth Vader's assistant from the first star wars, who is going to wipe out the rebels with one swift stroke. Sad. Though you do fight for the dark side, dark being in this case the wantonly ignorant.
Let me see, what's my favorite evil action in the bible? I think I'm going to go with when god decides to drown everyone except Noah and his family. I don't sweat that, really, though, because geology has shown without a doubt that the big flood never occurred. I guess you missed home school that day. And since god did it isn't evil, probably. Unless you've convinced yourself mass murder is ok if it's god doing it, which he is because god's the one who does everything, right?
And I can't resist, but Noah carrying all the animals around in a big boat? That's even more ludicrous than the virgin birth. If that's possible. You astonish me with your obstinacy, but I should have expected it; sheer bullheadedness is the only way for your faith to remain intact. I have so much to learn from you. Like how someone can get to your age without ever hearing of DNA, ninety-eight per cent of which humans share with chimpanzees. That sends up a little red flag for everyone but you.
What of the mechanism by which we experience god? Where is the organ on which the holy spirit acts?
I just don't understand how you think you're coming out ahead here and it's seriously starting to make me wonder if we're from different dimensions. I am from the place where you believe what you see, where people are responsible for their actions and don't have god to pin anything on, whether for better or worse, and where if you don't understand something, you investigate it instead of contemplating god's likely motives for, say, making the Chicago bears suck. You're apparently from the place where you see god everywhere, because you already believe in god, so you see god everywhere, so you believe even more in god. Damn, dude! That makes no sense!
Admitting that you believe in god not for any good reason, but just because you do, would get me a long way in accepting your enthusiasm for your own righteousness, although it wouldn't make me accept the actual righteouness any more than I currently do. Which is guess how much.
I have truly enjoyed this opportunity to peer inside the mind of someone like yourself. As opaque as it has seemed, I hold out hope that somewhere a light will shine through, one way or another. Even if it's just you and I agreeing on the age of the earth. I say four and a half billion years. What about you?
And as for my credibility, I'm not worried about it. Even the fact that you bring it up makes me feel you're on the ropes and hoping to find another distraction.
Bonus question: how does hell work, exactly? And please don't just say something cryptic.
Dale
________________________________________
Dale,
Hey good to hear from you! Well where do we start.
First off, I would like to discuss the choice that you have made for your favorite evil action in the Bible. You made the choice of Noah, and with good reason. It is a terrible story to have to read. I often have had to struggle with the fact that as you read through many of the Old Testament passages, it appears as if God is a God of wrath. Destroying men, wiping out tribes, but it is a lot deeper than that. Let me explain. When God created man, He did so in a manner to which man would be holy, just as God is holy. Yet in order to show His love, He also gave man the concept of free will. If God had created man in a manner to which we had no ability to make a decision on our own, there would be an absence of love. As Adam and Eve out of their free will, chose to disobey God, it broke the holiness that was present up until that point in man. Now you have the notion of Holy versus Unholy. Here's the first question for you: Could a Holy God stand back and in essence not do anything about unholiness? One thing that I have often thought about was why God chose to do what He did at that exact time. In Genesis 6:5-8 it says "Then the Lord saw that the
wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."
There are two important parts of this passage. The first is placed in all capitals. Can you imagine a world where only evil was done continually. Nobody cared about anyone else. There was no science or medicine to help cure sicknesses. There was nothing good. Mans thoughts were totally corrupted. The sentence that follows this part is important as well. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth. This needs understanding, because I know what you're gonna think. Does this mean that God regretted creating humanity? Was He admitting that He made a mistake? No. God does not change His mind. Instead, he was expressing sorrow for what the people had done to themselves, as a parent might express sorrow over a rebellious child. God was sorry that the people chose sin and death instead of a relationship with Him.
The most important thing to understand is the concept of Holiness. Holiness is perfection. You can't be partly holy. There is no grey area. This concept is important because it takes away the thought of humanity doing the same thing. There is not a human that can claim any holiness except through Christ. We can do righteous things, but we can't be holy. Only God is holy, and that which He sanctifies. When the Holy God saw the choices of man, He decided that He would wipe out humanity, yet He showed grace to Noah and the seven others. Why did He do that? Grace is a concept that Christianity and salvation is built on. Was Noah a Holy Man? Well, as I said earlier, you can't be Holy unless you never sin. Noah had sinned. Yet God knows that all man sins. He showed grace to Noah because Noah had kept pure in his ways. He had apparently sought after God. All the others were totally without God. We too would meet death and hell if it weren't for God showing grace to us as well, but we'll get to that later. Therefore, since God loved man, He sent the flood to wipe out all of the wickedness and evil that was on the earth. Therefore, I don't see how you can
call it mass murder. You can't compare it to something that an evil man does, for no man who murders can call themself holy can they? The reason it is not an evil action is because it was due to the fact that God is holy and did it out of His disgust of humanities wickedness.
How come when a bad person is killed no one seems to mourn except those close to the person?
How come noone seems to call it murder when a serial killer is executed? Because of the fact that it is punishment.
Secondly, I have never claimed that I am coming out ahead in this. I have not once called it a debate, but rather a dialogue. There is no competition in a dialogue. So I will ignore that comment.
As for your comment on DNA. I will ignore that one too. The vast differences of the 2% difference in Chimps and us is extreme. We don't look alike, we don't live the same amount of time, we don't think alike. Why would I even want to compare myself with a monkey? I'll leave that to you. I have heard of DNA and so I'll share something with you on that too. You are not thinking of DNA in the complex manner to which it exists. You think that DNA is simple. Each step is formed by pairing up two of the four nucleotides(molecules containing nitrogen in case you didn't know) found in DNA called adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine. When cells reproduce, the two rails or strands (these consist of sugar and phosphate molecules in case you didn't know) untwist and separate from each other, then reconnect to other strands to form exact duplicates of the original. For DNA work, it's not enough to have lots of
adenine, thymine, cytosine, and guanine molecules strung together. The nucleotides must be strung together in a precise order and the two strands matched up to convey information to the rest of the cell that determines its overall structure, properties, and functions. In easier words Dale, the nucleotides must be arranged in a highly specific and highly complex order that conveys meaningful instructions. The laws of physics and chemistry are woefully inadequate to explain the origin of DNA as a necessary product of any particular physical occurences or series of chemical reactions, and they certainly can't explain the information content of DNA. Suppose for your sake of argument that DNA could form spontaneously through some series of unguided chemical reactions. Even if such a thing could occur, it would not explain the meaning of the information conveyed by the DNA coding. All of these things lead
me to understand that DNA was created and not the result of purely unguided, unplanned natural processes.
You continually contend that I believe in God purely because I have accepted the notion of God. It's not that I don't see God in anything other than what the Bible says. That would be impossible, but rather I see God in all types of things such as in DNA, which I thank you for bringing up. You however continue to contend that there is no evidence of God. You argue that everything that science reveals is the result of the most perfect coincidence that humanity will ever see. It is a perfect mistake. For that I applaud your faith. To continue to ignore the revelations of God all around you takes the utmost faith. I am not trying to persuade you to accept everything that every Christian you meet says, but rather to ask yourself this question: "Is all of this perfection around us the result of a perfect coincidence and mistake, or rather the work of a Creator?
I have given you enough things to think about over this weekend, and a couple of questions that I would appreciate you making an effort at answering for me.
Even though the statement about Noah was difficult, I took the time and respect to give you a thorough answer. It may not be an acceptable answer to you, but I did respond. I also responded to your statement about DNA. I would appreciate the same respect back.
As for your final two questions on "How old the earth is?" and "How does hell work?" I have simple answers for you. I would state that I believe that the age of the earth is closer to what you claim than what many christians claim. I don't think that the age of the earth is something that God revealed in scriptures and I am fascinated by the "gap theory". I believe that the earth is pretty darn old. Probably millions of years old. And the question of hell is not one that I spend a lot of time on. Being that by my relationship with Christ I have been saved, I don't have to give hell any thought. I have received the grace that I was talking about earlier. Thank God that my sinful self was covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, otherwise I would be headed
straight there.
Well Dale, thanks for continuing to correspond with me, and I hope that this dialogue isn't being disgraced into being viewed as a competition. My hope is that through this dialogue we can both come out as winners.
Your friend,
Todd
_______________________________________
I'm taking a little break from this right now. I'll write Todd back when I feel like it. I know you'll be on the edge of your seats just waiting to see what happens next, if there aren't any good Ron Popiel infomercials on. "Set it, and..."
(By the way, I'm familiar with how DNA works.)
_______________________________________
Todd,
Inasmuch as there is a god for you and there isn't for me, we don't have a competition going, naturally. However, for me this is about the actual existence of a god, and not your faith. I don't care about your faith or anyone's faith, but rather what they do in the name of it. As long as the one influences the other in irrational ways, I will have a problem with organized religion. For me this is about that there simply either is, or isn't, a god, and since our opinions differ, one of us is right and the other isn't. Whether you think that's a disgrace or not is your business. Now more than ever, I don't expect to be able to convince you you're wrong for your faith, but I do expect to draw attention to the utter failure of every single person in history who, as much as he or she would love to, and trying as hard as possible, has never been able to prove god's existence in any way whatsoever. If that isn't a statistic that gets your attention, I don't know what to tell you.
Ok, the Noah thing. You think god's decision to kill everyone on earth, save Noah and the his family and the tree frogs (who of course never harmed a soul), wasn't evil, because the people were evil themselves, all throughout and whatnot. The story goes that ALL the people, children and infants included, were just being awful to one another, "EVIL CONTINUALLY". So god killing practically every living human was justified, because it's god doing it, so it's automatically holy. I get that. And now I can see where our paths to understanding diverge.
You have true power over yourself, one that I can never have and don't want. You have achieved the ability, through sheer willpower and steady doses of religious indoctrination, to convince yourself that it's ok when god kills everyone in the world, and that a boat full of all the animals in the world can exist. This is beyond my ability to reason with, and I feel that identifying this now will save me a lot of time in the future.
I am flabbergasted. I can't compete with your necessarily fanatical devotion to you beliefs, as totally insane as I consider them to be, which I do, and I doubt that anything can. What could everyone possibly have done that would be worse than killing every person in the world? Have bad thoughts going on all the time? Stealing?
It's very sick to entertain for even a moment that this story could contain a shred of a moral lesson. It also just couldn't have occurred on earth, at any time. Don't make me send you a list of all the animals in the world.
I really don't see what the point of emailing you is any more, but for the record, I'd like to see you sweat something, and if you feel like answering, here you go. I can tell you've enjoyed the opportunity to give authoritative answers, as nuts as they have to be to fit in with your overburdened belief system.
How does heaven work? You plan on spending eternity there, so what's the plan? Specifically, when you get there, how will you recognize people? Are they the age they were when they died? That would suck for someone who, say, died really old after they lost a leg in their twenties. I want to hear the story you tell young children, the one you personally approve of, that's so much more realistic than the suicide-bombing Islamic heaven where you get to screw seventy-some-odd virgins forever.
The question you asked me to ask myself in your last email, "Is all of this perfection around us the result of a perfect coincidence and mistake, or rather the work of a Creator?" is shaded, plain and simple. I asked myself, and that's what I said. "The question is framed."
My version of that question goes like this. "Is the world around us the work of a creator, or is there another way it could have come about?" Which of these two questions leads to a more rigorous treatment of facts, to a more honest, objective assessment of the world around us?
I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your questions, but "How come when a bad person is killed no one seems to mourn except those close to the person?" seems to be a question that answers itself, and if you don't mind my saying so, is hopelessly general.
I think that about covers it for now, Todd, so have a good one.
Dale
_______________________________________
Dale,
Thanks again for writing back. The last email you sent me seriously frustrates
me. I don't know exactly what you are wanting. You seem to run around in
circles. The only thing that is going to do it for you is a polaroid photo of
God creating the heavens and the earth, and since you will settle for nothing
else, I guess there is no use keeping a dialogue. I asked you a series of
questions and one of two things is taking place. I asked you the first one
which stated "Could a Holy God not do anything about unholiness?" and you
didn't answer it. You supposively have tons of information regarding the
disprovement of the story of Noah based on geological evidence and you offered
zero. You grasped nothing I said because you won't even take the opportunity to
see this side of the story. If there was a Holy God, and no man is holy, can
you compare the action of God to the action of any man? The answer is no. But
you still returned back to the idea that God has to live by man's rules, when
for the believer it is the opposite. I am not holy, and He is, therefore who am
I to bring an argument against God? I included the statement "How come noone
seems to call it murder when a serial killer is executed? Because of the fact
that it is punishment." in order to show my understanding of the act of the
flood. Yet you don't listen.
You include this statement: " but I do expect to draw attention to the utter
failure of every single person in history who, as much as he or she would love
to, and trying as hard as possible, has never been able to prove god's
existence in any way whatsoever. If that isn't a statistic that gets your
attention, I don't know what to tell you."
You know what grabs my attention even more? The exact opposite is true. No
single person in history has been able to prove that there is no God. In fact
the majority of humans believe in God in one way or the other, so don't try and
make it sound like that is so impressive of a statement. You even admitted that
it's impossible to prove God. Yet this was your first statement of the
dialogue, and you can't seem to bring up anything else.
Whether or not you realize it, you also worship something. You worship in your
own manner, and in my opinion your god is science. Yet doesn't every human die,
due to natural causes. So are the natural events of life evil, since they kill
every human? Science can't pinpoint what causes certain diseases, yet they are
scientific organisms. So is science evil too, since bacterias and all those
cool things kill every human? You always try to think of my God as a human, and
that is where you make the mistake. You can't judge God, because you are less
than Him.
You make the statement that my question on whether everything around us in it's
perfection is the result of a Creator or a perfect coincidence is a plain,
simple, and framed question. On what grounds? All I ask you to answer is where
all of the universes came from if they were not created. Since you don't
believe that there is a beginning, and you don't believe that something can't
come from nothing, where does it come from. You talk evolution and big bang
theory, and those are all nice and supported by science, but wouldn't it be an
honest statement that both of these theories make claim that the perfection
comes from nothing and even better that nothing came to be perfection by
natural coincidence? It isn't a framed question, be honest and state the truth,
it is a question that your beliefs are impossible to have an answer to. That
would be truth. You duck the question and call it framed because your beliefs
have nothing to offer. Where is your evidence, Dale. Give me something.
You used to talk about the burden of proof. Well if you are the prosecutor of
my religion, don't you have to prove without a doubt that my God doesn't exist?
The burden of proof is your responsibility when I ask you a question. How would
you respond if I stated that your Noah question was framed. It was intended to
be a question that would stump me wasn't it? Yet I gave you a detailed answer,
and this email is what you give back to me? I know that you are much more
intelligent than that. Either you are losing interest in the question that you
brought up, or you just arent giving any effort, but sorry man this is pathetic.
Hope you can try and answer at least one question that I've proposed to you.
You don't have to tell me something convincing, just say something at least.
Oh, but I forgot. You believe that nothing can be a powerful thing. Who knows,
your answers of nothing might evolve into something someday, hopefully in the
next time you decide to write.
Frustrated,
Todd
----------------------------------
After the last email you sent me, I decided it was a waste of time discussing this entire subject with you. After taking a while to think about how sorry I am for you, I have finally decided to go ahead and tell you why.
To reply to your last email to me (which was the last straw), you're right! I can't prove that god doesn't exist! However, that is a ridiculous point, because I can't prove that fairies aren't under the garden pushing up the tomatoes, either. Congratulations. Even though it was the icing on the cake, I shouldn't have been surprised. You're full of ridiculous points, and that's it. Hot air is all you have, all you have ever had, and all you will ever have until you yank your head out of the aperture which you euphemistically refer to as your intellectual-coma inducing "faith".
I can't penetrate your slavish devotion to your dogmatic argument style, so until I give up on you my wheels will spin, and I will waste my time trying to explain three dimensions to someone whose worldview is contingent on there being only two. Like the stupid waste of money called the war in Iraq, the quicker I pull out the better off I will be. Why? Because you love this idea you have called god, no serious analysis of any other option can occur, and moreover, when it comes to the actions that the god you claim to know about is written to have taken, you still think he's 1) real and 2) a great guy. Let's take a closer look.
Two quick problems with the book your whole reality is based on:
People can't survive in the belly of a whale for three days.
All the animals in the world don't fit on a boat.
Bonus. Donkeys don't talk. (Numbers 22:28)
As for god:
He thinks mustard seeds are the smallest of the seeds. (Matthew 13:32)
He think the sun revolves around the earth. (Joshua 10:13)
God likes to kill babies, (Deut. 32), and this is the guy who your salvation depends on, because he also says the only way to heaven is through him.
And this guy actually throws a curse on a fig tree.
God is a raving, egocentric maniac. By what moral, ethical or practical standard could you fairly argue otherwise? And you know what? I'm not even arguing with you any more because no matter what, for the sake of what you deem "faith", that doesn't matter. Nothing does.
Because of your chosen proximity to it, you only see one square inch of god's metaphorical ass, and you like it that way. I would too, if my mental health depended on some primitive fantasy, so in a way (although it is a way that makes me want to moan with grief), I understand.
And let me clear something up for you, that you wrote in your last really spectacular, challenging, and impressive email. Science doesn't kill people. Nature does, and nature isn't evil. Nothing is evil. Evil is an idea made up by simpletons like yourself. People who need someone to be mad at because they're too stupid to realize that nature is pitilessly indifferent. Not much meaning in that for you, though. And science is not god to me. I don't know what you've been doing with my emails since you obviously aren't reading them, but I'll repeat myself for old time's sake, since this is the last time I'm having to go through this. Religion makes people complacently stupid, content not to investigate the world around them, and to ruin the lives of people who do. So nice try on the little turn-around.
Take care, Todd, and when you look up into the night sky, just look at it and let that be enough. God's not there, and if he was, he's not good enough to give a shit about.
D
---------------------------------------------
SuperDale,
What in the sam heck have you been up to? Sure did miss visiting with you. Heck
I was kind of getting worried that I was in danger of remaining in an
intellectual coma because unless you save me from it I will remain with my head
stuck up my aperture. Jusk kidding, but it is good to hear from you.
I don't know about all that mumbo-jumbo that you are trying to disquise with
intellectual sounding garbage, but I appreciate the genuine concern. Heck, you
at least seem to break the trend of most atheists who are too selfish to care
about anyone else. Your thoughts about me at least assure me that what we've
talked about has remained in your mind, whether it is because you think I'm a
total moron, or because it causes you to stop and think about what's been
discussed.
Since this is the last time you are going to write me, I just want to say I'll
miss you. You have been one of the smartest fellers I've talked with in a long
time, and for what it's worth I admire your zeal to maintain a creative mind
and for searching for truth. I only hope that you find what you are looking
for, since I have found what I looked for. At least maybe you can take that for
a compliment, and as a sign of my respect for you and your belief in nothing.
As for my faith, I am glad that you see that what I believe in is worth it to
me to not pay attention to such well presented statements such as what you have
given. I guess that means that my faith has stood a pretty darn good test. You
are definitely a smart person, and I wish the best to you, your new wife, and
to all the endeavors that you shall embarketh thee on. Just thought I would
throw in a little King James language in case you don't ever open a bible and
read it for yourself.
On the most serious note though, I do appreciate the time that you allowed me
to engage in with yourself, and I hope that in that time you realize that I am
not your enemy, but I only hope to be your friend. God bless you, and I will be
praying for you.
Your potential friend,
Todd
---------------------------------
[At this point our repartee concludes, and not a moment too soon. I'd rather be doing other things with my time. Todd rejects my attempts at reasonableness, and I either call it quits or slowly go insane. The whole thing reminds me of what an old friend once said abut a restaurant. The food sucks, but at least it's expensive.]
posted by dale at 5:29 AM
4 Comments:
The comments got erased when I changed the template to blue.
I pimp slap you on a regular basis, Todd, but you obviously need some attention, so I'll come leave yet more comments on your blog which you will ignore because the bible is a ridiculous heap of steaming cowshit.
Suck a dick,
Me
The only thing you pimp slap is your dog.....
I'm not playing the game where you pretend not to be crazy any more.
You're such a liar about the comments. They don't just up and delete when you change a template, they aren't saved to your code files, moron. You deleted them because you looked like an idiot.
Still do.
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